*** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

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*** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by The original northen boy » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:35 pm

OK i know this topic is on the long side but bare with it,if you can,as it's taken me age to write it so try not to hurt my feelings or i'll be back to my therapist.

The MK3 Marina "the greatly under rated Marina" if you didn't know i was a fan you will do after this,to me and the "people in the know" the MK3 is easily the best car from the Marina/Ital range, and well why you may ask?......... so if you need to ask you had better read on.

The MK3 Marina was only produced for two years 1978/80 so the numbers produced are lower than the previous cars and i might argue this should have been the last of the range and then the Marina could have bowed out on a relative high,the Ital front suspension set-up would have been a welcome fitting,but this only unfortunately appears on the latter Ital (Marina MK4? but strangely on all the Ital vans and pick-ups) this is the best and one of the easiest conversions to carry out on any Marina or pre-fitting Ital,the difference is apparent from the first drive,so if you can get a conversion set i would fit it,and go gas adjustable shockers all round,a BIG BIG improvement to the previous cars,and not a fortune to carry out,a job well worth the effort.

The MK3 cars drive well,the 1700cc "O" series OHC engine adds that more modern feeling to the cars,remember in 1978 the "O" series was a brand new engine (and B.L Cars,in partnership with Perkins went on to create the Prima diesel engine still used today,for Land Rover conversions and in marine usage and of course the Montego and Maestro diesel range and delivered excellent performance and economy) the engines are pretty smooth and deliver a good amount of power and even by today's standards are still passable,in 2 litre form the engine was used in the Rover 800 till 1999 under the "M" series format with some additional work the engine became a 16 valve unit,base model 800 cars used the standard 2 litre (Ital) engine in 8 valve form.And just one more point on the engine front,the MK3 also missed out on maybe the best of all the engine variations fitted to the cars the 1.3 "A+" what a cracking little engine this is what a pity this unit wasn't used.

The external styling of the MK3 looks far more modern than the MK1/2's the improved front with its grille mounted spotlights (carried over from the previous MK2 model) works far better when set off with the chrome and rubber bumpers and black front spoiler.The inside with the "curve away dash" (another MK2 carry over) looks a tad strange but after a couple of minuets you'll never notice the clocks are clean,modern and easy to read,and a great little thing is that all the switches are illuminated,the dash set up at night is very pleasant especially on the HL models where even a panel light dimmer switch is fitted,the construction of the dash is nowhere near as solid as the MK1 cars,but this is really a small price to pay,and the steering wheel is excellent the balance of it's proportions work so well (try a MK3 wheel to get the impression) so good is this steering wheel that the story goes driving instructors fitted old MK3 wheels to their new Rover cars because these are so good for learners (remember 10-2 and 20-4 wheel positions?) the MK3 wheel is set for that.The real draw back with the dash is not that it faces the passenger that's just a small set back but it too confined to fit modern I.C.E systems in the aperture.

The road manners of the MK3 are far from perfect but leaps and bounds away and the very early MK1's cars and an good improvement over the previous model, the roll aspect is far less pronounced and the cars feel tighter and far more sure footed,the brakes are positive and work on dual circuit servo assisted,discs front and drums rear also with both a front and rear anti-roll bar,handling is fair to good ( but the Ital suspension conversion would have been such an improvement) performance from the 1700cc cars is only fractions slower than the 1800TC cars but fuel consumption is far better,sadly there is no 5 speed gearbox option this would have been a real boost to the car,and the coupes come only in 1300cc form with no HL version available and still with a boot and not a hatch back as the car should have been by this time,the Mk3 is car that is grossly under valued and appreciated,get them now before everyone finds out how good they are and the price reflect that.

The MK3 is a great car,but the one thing it does miss as Frank so rightly said,"is that wonderful T.C exhaust note" on that count the MK3 doesn't come close.

Russ

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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by Martec » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:57 am

Hi Russ,

A very nice dissertation, you refered to the Ital front suspension of which I have a question.

What difference is there between the MkI upright and lower link and the Ital items?

The reason I ask is the a club member I met at a few show said they are different, hence my 2 degrees of negative camber (spent years trying to get rid of it). But I have the front items from an Ital and from measurememt cannot find a diference.

Brian
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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by tigon20 » Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:45 pm

Russ,

As always and excellently constructed argument in favour of what we know is the best of the marina breed.

Having owned one now for 6 months my mk3 has never let me down, has been fun to drive and has never been less than fun to be in.

It has recently been on transport duty for myself down to the local metro station, a task for the last three weeks it has performed without any problems at all.

It really is a joy to own, even more so today when it flew through its mot at the first attempt.

Marina mk3 it may be underated, but it should never be underestimated!!!!
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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by The original northen boy » Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:37 pm

Ay up Brian,and Jason,

Well thanks fellas for the positive reviews on the article or "the dissertation" Brian i take it you are aiming for a -0.5 negative camber set-up configuration? now for the life of me i can't recall the exact measurement settings between the different units as you mentioned without looking them up (but there is a difference and although the difference is small it does makes a noticeable impact, but i will find out for you and the exact specifications)

Oh by have you checked the steering geometry by laser wheel tracking equipment these units are far more accurate than reflected light systems and i have had positive results from their usage, just a thought the camber could be a incurred problem from the cars castor? as in one fault leading to another,i would think you will be in the 3-5 degrees of positive castor,if this is not the case the camber will alter accordinly.

Now Jason as you say the MK3's are a joy to own and a pleasure to drive,the smoothness that a OHC engine give is a often overlook benefit that is taken for granted,and what a result a pass first time,i really commend all the owners who use their cars on a daily basis though hail,snow,rain and shine,and as you so rightly put it "underrated but should never be underestimated" the Marina MK3 when you know whats what!

Russ

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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by Martec » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:24 pm

Hi Russ,

Yes I've got 5 degrees of castor and use a reflected light unit to check tow-in after fiddling. I'll measure the links again as i assumed they were the same MkI to MkIV. I also use a very technical 8ft length of timber to check 4 wheel alignment.

Does anyone know how the change occured from 5deg to 3 deg as I calculate the arm has to move forward something like 1/2" and again early and late arms seem the same.

Sorry to be technical but I've almost finished setting up an idling valve in the ECU and keep thinking about improving the suspension, tweaks rather than radical so that VOSA or DVLA would not be informed. I do like the wide stance of 'Kilroy's Estate'.

Brian
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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by MarinaCoupe » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:02 pm

Brian,

I know that when the v early cars had their trunnion and upright change, BL also changed the angle of the upper suspension arm on the shock absorber, which obviously would change the caster angle - so there are two versions of the Mk1 "big eye" shock absorber. I had a look at Andy Walsingham's early MK1 "Hukkie" whilst Dave Richardson was doing the switch to later suspension and when he fitted the new trunnion and upright the top pin didn't line up anywhere near the shocker arm, so he had to change the shockers as well.

As I think that you already run the Ital top suspension arm and telescopic shock absorber - you have changed that, but does everything else match up year to year?

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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by The original northen boy » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:59 am

Ay up Brian,

You have set a posser there!,although by no means is the camber of you car excessive,it not to the setting you want! i'm presuming that you have reached the limits of standard adjustment via normal procedure (have you checked the correct ride height than set according to that?)
The only other option if the standard adjustment channels have been tried and retried is the replacement of the original parts with the later modified units,where the latter additional changes have taken place,i know this seems a drastic step to replace the suspension set up with replacements but these minor tolerance settings are included in the units manufacture,so this my be the only option to achieve the required outcome.Brian as i write i'm contacting the fountain of all tolerance settings you name sake Brian (marina brian) and see if he can throw some light on the subject,he's is "King of camber"
Brian P.M me you phone number and i'll have a word in person with you.

Russ

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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by Kilroy » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:34 am

Wtg Russ - the Mk3 is just a more modern Marina I think.
My preference originally arose from the fact that I acquired a Mk3 first, and then wanted to economise on spares - so I made them all Mk3's after that.!
Currently 10 of the blighters - and each has its own behaviour.
Brian - not sure about your neg camber - I have 1 degree which was a natural occurrence resulting from lowering it.
The 7" wheels seem to accentuate it a bit - in fact in this photo I think you can detect the difference in camber between front and rear just by eye.

Image


Here's a thing.
As regards handling.
The Estate is heavier than any other body option.
The 1800 is the heaviest motor.
The auto is much heavier than the manual.
Yet my blue Estate - which has 1800 based motor, and is an auto - handles by far the best of all my Marinas.
Not sure how to qualify that....

Cheers all,
Kilroy

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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by Martec » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:46 pm

hi All,

I seem to have stired up a hornets nest, my dad said not to buy a car in its first year of production as the major changes were made a year later (product tests by consumer). Hence my August 72 TC, when I went to buy spares I found that mine was in the middle of various changes. I had the early trunnions, but over the years it has ended up with original torsion bars and lower arms. Walford trunnions, original uprights and late Ital top links and vertical dampers and I still have 5deg of caster.

From what Chris says mine may be later than the early spoon top dampers, so with the Ital roller top links that should have got rid of 5 deg back to 3 deg, unless the body hinge bolt thing that the torsion bar goes through was moved back but that would mean a shorter torsion bar. As I say I've spent year trying to get rid of the high caster and 2deg camber, but don't suffer from excessive tyre wear so more or less accepted it.

I do like Kilroy's filled arches, I suspect my extra caster is from lowering (1" at the front now) and the Walfords. I suppose it a historical thing in trying to find out where and how the changes occured. Back to the loft to measure up again. I think I've got one of every trunion type somewhere (given them over the years).

I'll send a PM Russ for a chat.

Brian

PS I've joined the Jaguar forum and still not had a reply to any of my questions. No one can say this is not a friendly forum!
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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by Kilroy » Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:49 am

Brian
I know exactly what you mean about the "filled arches".
I was looking for - and feel I have achieved - a much more "solid" look to these cars by using wheels that come close to reaching the outer edge of the bodywork.

Image


Besides that - it increases the track by a whopping 3" - and that makes a huge difference to the lateral stability.
For example - driving the blue estate over "Evans Pass Road" - which is just around the corner from me, and is something akin to my perception of the "Mille Miglia" - with treacherous cliff faces and sheer drops immediately next to the road - I can hammer the thing to great extremes without feeling nervous.
If I then fit the standard wheels and attempt the same thing - my trousers definitely change colour.
I recently raced a fwd alfa romeo in the uphill direction on this road, and he chose to give up rather than match my cornering.
I took that as great praise for the way this Estate handles.!

Cool.

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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by The original northen boy » Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:19 pm

Gentleman From the Marina Brian collection,the epitome of the Marina/Ital range,a 1979 MK3 1700 HL in Vermilion,to myself and the people in the know really this has to be the the best car in possibly the best colour with the best interior! *** the apparent fading on the seats is only shading from the sun ***

Here are a selection of photos to emphasise that point,and remember we are looking at a 30 year old car that has stood the test of time very well indeed,now do you still want a MK1 half as much now?

Image

Image

Image

Image


Russ

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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by Uncle Frank » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:39 pm

:wink: Mmmmm....that interior would look lovely in a nice MK1 Russ :wink: :lol: :lol:
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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by JubileeNut » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:55 pm

No! Still like the MK1 interior better! :shock: Prefer the lines on the MK1 inside door panels than the square boxes on the MK3!
Plus the vinyl roof to me never looked finished! I expect cutting costs.
Plus the wide stainless window trims look better and the pressing around the rear lamps looks like it should really still have corner lamps fitted instead of flat ones.
Also the TC grill looks better as it is more sporty and mean looking although I do like the spots in the MK3 grill!
Still would not sway me to like MK3 more than a MK1!

But these are just my thoughts so please do not take a fence - or a gate! :D
This is probably because I grew up with MK1 cars and when my other uncle bought a MK2 I hated the bits BL altered and the MK3 had a similar look!
Never driven one so I expect they do run better but I also know nothing about the O series engine so would be no good at fixing it unlike the B series!
I tend to agree with Frank that it was designed to be like a MK1 and after that it was someone else looking at it to put his mark on it to possibly improve it or not in my opinion.
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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by The original northen boy » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:11 am

Ay up Paul,
Sorry about this my PC is acting up and it looks like you said in your last post your prefer the MK1 interior to the MK3,as this surly cannot be right i have added a photo of a MK1 dash and interior just to reaffirm the point.

Image

The dash is workman like to say the least and maybe British Leyland could have won some orders by adding a fitting for a Thermos flask and two cup holders this would have been really in keeping and would have been a nice touch,or a perhaps a pocket over the glove compartment to take a copy of the Sun news paper?

The lack of illumination,apart from the clocks is woefully poor (the whole MK3 dash lights up including the modern heater controls,clocks and all switches) the spartan aspect is further added too by the lack of a clock,yes the variety that performs the basic task of telling the time,no the MK1 doesn't have one.

All the MK3's had cloth or velour seats,the MK1 all had vinyl seats and the MK1 A's or top of the range T.C models brush nylon now that so 70's,and the door panels on the MK3 cover the entire door interior,the HL's even have door pockets as standard.

The front grille again doesn't do it for me not even the T.C,and once more this looks so 1970's (but at the time this is what is was supposed to do i know you'll say) the MK3 front end treatment still looks good,and the extra spot lights are a real practical feature the HL models both the head lights and spot lights are halogens (H4's) so another bonus there,the rear lights perhaps would have worked better as a wrap around,but you have built in reversing lights not add-ons that always look cobbled on the MK1's and also have the extra benefit of twin rear fog lights incorporated into them,and fitted over the excellent looking chrome and rubber bumpers.

And finally they do drive better,performance is as good as the MK1's and possibly the most important consideration are far and away better on the go-go juice,but you know the thing about MK1 cars that annoys me the most?.........the lack of a TRIP METER!!! (odometer) really shouldn't at least the top of the range cars be fitted with one! this is far worse a crime than the "flap" heater vents that are truly awful,on the MK3 you get a real "eye-ball vent" and a trip meter.

So that's some more of the MK3 benefits,so even if i can't sway any of you from your earlier cars,and i wouldn't wish to don't be too hasty to dismiss the MK3 it really is a good car,honest.

Russ

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Re: *** THE GREATLY UNDER RATED MK3 MARINA ***

Post by Uncle Frank » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:22 pm

:roll: Oh dear Russ...are you sure you couldn`t have found a scabbier interior to illustrate your point, i have seen far nicer Mk1 interiors than that one, anyway a couple of points...where`s all the chrome on your Mk3 dash?, i can see loads of cheap plastic... and the radio is facing away from the driver! nice touch! :roll: :wink: , as for the rear lights, well the mk2 had nice built in reversing lights, which will easily fit the mk1 without fuss, as for the seats?...well you got me there, the mk3 seats were really nice quality and did wear very well, perhaps the tilt mechanism on the late coupe`s could have been a bit more sturdy, but you can`t have it all eh! :wink: .plus i must say the cheap plastic wheeltrims don`t do it for me either, they really need a nice set of alloys to set them off, my old mk3 looked the business with the old Revolution alloys on, after all is said and done the mk2 and 3 were better in their own ways, but i will always prefer the styling of the mk1, it`s the same for me with Mini`s and the 1100 series. :wink:
Last edited by Uncle Frank on Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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