Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

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Gee tc
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Re: RE: Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by Gee tc » Mon May 07, 2018 10:00 pm

mickthefitter wrote:Miserable little......hoseclip
WP_20180507_17_39_23_Pro.jpg
That's what popped on mine on the way to the 2016 nationals. Bit stressed when that happened!

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Mon May 07, 2018 10:28 pm

Yes I was there. I think I can remember. Didn't you give me a rear light lens you didn't want, out of your boot? Those old heater hoses have been on my mind for a while, though looking at the flexibility of the rubber as they came off (in bits as I cut them) they could have gone on for another 40 years! :o
I changed my top and bottom hoses, for new old stock Unipart items off eBay, pretty quickly when I got the car, during the many phases of trying to discover why it got hot, and didn't want to shift! But with the lack of accessibility, plus fresh coolant before the new heater hoses arrived, after I'd had the rad rebuilt, changing the back hoses had to wait. This time though, as well as it being time for new 2 year antifreeze, I wanted to change the thermostat for an 88 degree one I got from Mini Spares, since, as I've documented before, the new rad means the temperature needle takes ages to leave the blue zone, during which time the car stutters and hesitates for longer than it should, then even when 'up to temperature' the needle barely moves a hair's breadth outside the blue zone unless you are doing something like queuing to park at Ferry Meadows in hot sunshine. I'm hoping that running cool hasn't damaged the engine, but the last time I had it running last year, it sounded a bit noisy to me...

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Re: RE: Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by Gee tc » Mon May 07, 2018 10:36 pm

mickthefitter wrote:Yes I was there. I think I can remember. Didn't you give me a rear light lens you didn't want, out of your boot? Those old heater hoses have been on my mind for a while, though looking at the flexibility of the rubber as they came off (in bits as I cut them) they could have gone on for another 40 years! :o
I changed my top and bottom hoses, for new old stock Unipart items off eBay, pretty quickly when I got the car, during the many phases of trying to discover why it got hot, and didn't want to shift! But with the lack of accessibility, plus fresh coolant before the new heater hoses arrived, after I'd had the rad rebuilt, changing the back hoses had to wait. This time though, as well as it being time for new 2 year antifreeze, I wanted to change the thermostat for an 88 degree one I got from Mini Spares, since, as I've documented before, the new rad means the temperature needle takes ages to leave the blue zone, during which time the car stutters and hesitates for longer than it should, then even when 'up to temperature' the needle barely moves a hair's breadth outside the blue zone unless you are doing something like queuing to park at Ferry Meadows in hot sunshine. I'm hoping that running cool hasn't damaged the engine, but the last time I had it running last year, it sounded a bit noisy to me...
Oddly... mine seems to get very warm very quickly! I run an 82 degree. I've been thinking of investing in a kenlowe type fan. Waiting in traffic and exiting showgrounds tends to send my needle up into the red. It runs great on the open road however.
Before it goes to Devon in July , I'll get it looked at carb wise and the timing rechecked.

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Mon May 07, 2018 11:00 pm

Oh it was the radiator in mine. Apart from the blocked tailpipe that came to light last year, when I gave up trying to make it run right and handed the car over to my local garage expert. But I had the rad rebuilt with a close-to Sherpa van specification, which is what had been recommended to me. How close to Sherpa spec I'm not sure. I told my chosen repairer what I'd been told to get, and he said "I'll tell you what we can do..." and showed me a sample matrix. So me, I'm thinking, yeah, okay, I need to do something, go ahead. So now, it doesn't warm up fast enough.

What is it when cars get old? I was talking to a DeLorean owner at Ilkeston last year, and his car always ran a bit cooler than it ought to, and he'd been through everything and couldn't find a reason for it. When I had 'old' cars when they were just six or seven years old, they always ran fine, apart from little things like misfiring when they needed new points, or having to have their tappets adjusted. No overheating, no petrol smells, as I see it they were just as much a switch-on-and-use-it item as the modern cars are today, except you had to be mechanically sympathetic and take care warming them up on the choke, or use WD40 in damp weather, unlike now when you just let the computer sort all that out and stamp on the throttle to go. But it seems to me no matter how many new parts get fitted, 60s and 70s cars now always need coaxing, and pampering to get them to run. I'm sure many people will say I'm wrong and their classic car is as reliable today as any modern car, but personally, that's not what I find.

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Re: RE: Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by Gee tc » Mon May 07, 2018 11:12 pm

mickthefitter wrote:Oh it was the radiator in mine. Apart from the blocked tailpipe that came to light last year, when I gave up trying to make it run right and handed the car over to my local garage expert. But I had the rad rebuilt with a close-to Sherpa van specification, which is what had been recommended to me. How close to Sherpa spec I'm not sure. I told my chosen repairer what I'd been told to get, and he said "I'll tell you what we can do..." and showed me a sample matrix. So me, I'm thinking, yeah, okay, I need to do something, go ahead. So now, it doesn't warm up fast enough.

What is it when cars get old? I was talking to a DeLorean owner at Ilkeston last year, and his car always ran a bit cooler than it ought to, and he'd been through everything and couldn't find a reason for it. When I had 'old' cars when they were just six or seven years old, they always ran fine, apart from little things like misfiring when they needed new points, or having to have their tappets adjusted. No overheating, no petrol smells, as I see it they were just as much a switch-on-and-use-it item as the modern cars are today, except you had to be mechanically sympathetic and take care warming them up on the choke, or use WD40 in damp weather, unlike now when you just let the computer sort all that out and stamp on the throttle to go. But it seems to me no matter how many new parts get fitted, 60s and 70s cars now always need coaxing, and pampering to get them to run. I'm sure many people will say I'm wrong and their classic car is as reliable today as any modern car, but personally, that's not what I find.
You're right.. they do take some loving.
Mines done around 2.5k since its rebuild so I'm guessing it's changing as it's now effectively run in and loosening up. The electronic points are a big help so it has never failed to start and run. Any problems I do get stem from the carbs when sitting in traffic etc on a warm day.
The escort which is 32 years old now has a manual choke but once warmed up, which is a quick process, runs as well as any modern car. I learnt most of my limited mechanical skills on cvh and pinto engines but only came back to BL stuff in recent years. My first marina was a cinch to do things on like plugs and points and oil which was about all I ever had to do with it.

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Mon May 07, 2018 11:58 pm

Its about the same with me really. I used to do routine servicing, learned to check the timing and mixture strength on single carb cars, did a few brake shoe and pad renewals, water pumps, three clutches on rear drive cars in league with my stepdad, and did a head gasket renewal on my Mk1 in the 80s. I've never rebuilt an engine, swapped axles, or successfully welded a car. I had a failed attempt at doing up a Mini van when I was 18 and was in over my head, and upset all my mum's neighbours with the mess and the noise of hammering and sanding for six weeks in the summer! :lol: I can weld very well, on a work bench or building a frame or something on the floor, but waffer thin cars? Forget it. But in the normal scheme of things I've always believed myself more than capable of doing routine jobs and minor repairs on a well-bought classic car, from 'my era' if you like, without having to keep running to a garage, but over the years I've come to remember that old adage, which is as true today, in my opinion, as it was in the 70s when the classic cars were just 'quality used cars' (sic).....if it's for sale, there's a reason. And I don't care if it's on eBay, at a dealer sticking a 50-80% mark up on it just for having it in his showroom (or barn) or at auction where they'll sometimes say "We've driven round the village and it drives as it should"...if its for sale, it needs some money spending on it.

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by Morris McKinnon » Tue May 08, 2018 12:52 am

It's just age I think. Reproduction parts, different oils and petrol today and general wear and tear all adds up. I remember the Ital my neighbor used to lend me, it started first turn of the key with no choke and was super quiet inside, so much so, it was difficult to tell if the engine had actually started until you got up to speed! It felt very firm on the road too. I don't get that same feel from my Marina even though everything bolted to her is good.

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by Chicken Hawk » Tue May 08, 2018 11:58 am

If you are still getting issue, have you thought the temp sendor maybe at fault? I had to change mine twice with N.O.S parts before the gauge was reading correctly. I have a electric cooling fan rigged with a temp switch in the top hose. When the original temp sendor failed I changed it and strait away I could tell the engine was warming up quicker and the fan was cutting in and out higher up the temp gauge. Fitted the second NOS temp sendor and back to normal 👍

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by Morris McKinnon » Tue May 08, 2018 2:12 pm

Could it be the gauge stabilizer? It would be last to check on the list but I've had issues with these things on a couple of mine. For the longest time I thought my car was overheating from either a blockage or dud thermostat.

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Tue May 08, 2018 11:20 pm

I very much believe my temperature gauge sender is not at fault, although I admit my voltage stabilizer has been a bit flaky, causing both fuel and temperature gauges to drop to zero, either for a few seconds or the whole duration of a short journey. However increased use of the car last year seemed to resolve that. In my experience with Fords and other BMC and BL cars, both in period and as classics, a failed temperature sender results in the gauge needle barely getting off the stops. When I bought my current Marina it was very sick - I just didn't realise how sick till much later. So when the engine was being worked (like just trying to maintain 50mph) the temperature needle would rise towards the red, and the car's performance would get worse. Symptoms of being on the way towards overheating, not a faulty sender. When I went to the Nationals at Quorn in 2016, and had to rest the car each way, on what was a 16 mile each-way journey for me, to stop it boiling over, that was a wake-up call as to how sick it was. When I had the radiator reconditioned with a more efficient core, even though most of the other major faults affecting the car's running remained undiscovered at that point, immediately the new radiator resulted in longer warm up times for the engine and cooler running. So I can't see it being the sender. Crap radiator, hot running. Too efficient a radiator, cool running. Ideally of course I would have liked a brand new original 1800 Marina radiator, but, the internet and eBay wasn't much help there.

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Sat May 12, 2018 9:18 pm

I've removed a post of mine in the thread asking for a TC radiator in the 'Classifieds, wanted items' section and I'm putting an abbreviated version here. David Painter raised some points that I wanted to answer in respect of my Marina HL auto running cooler ever since I replaced the very poor original radiator with a re-cored one (same tanks and brackets, more efficient core). The work was done by Coolex Heat Transfer in Nottingham and cost me £192. Not cheap.

Dave's points should be found here viewtopic.php?f=3&p=95453#p95453

I think the key point I'm trying to make in this 'running cooler' business, where the needle on the car's temperature gauge takes ages to get out of the blue zone - and I mean ages - and then barely makes it a quarter of a way or even less into the black (sometimes it's only just past the blue) is that I changed one thing to bring about these 'symptoms', and that one thing was the radiator. Prior to this, with the car proving hard to start, and running badly, down on power, the temperature gauge needle would get to the middle of the black zone in the normal manner, and was fine so long as I didn't exceed 40mph or go up hills. If I did either of those two things, then the gauge would head towards the red. With all the advice I received at the time - this was 2016 - and after flushing the block, checking the water pump, checking the thermostat etc., all of which did nothing to help, I tried to follow advice given to get the radiator re-cored to 'Sherpa spec', but the company I found to do the work, when I told them what I wanted, showed me a sample of matrix they could do that would carry more heat away, and I said 'yes' to it. And since then, even though my engine was still hiding a blocked up tailpipe, a manifold leak and a distributor that wasn't advancing properly due to wrong springs i.e. it ran like a pig and had no power, it hasn't warmed up properly.

So to recap, I changed one thing, the radiator, to bring about a change from running hot, to running cool. This, to me, unless the Gods are playing silly boggers with me again (which they could be) pretty much negates the temperature gauge sender, voltage stabilizer, the blocked exhaust and other engine faults which remained until 2017, or sitting holding the car on the brake with it in Drive...

If I sometimes come across as being a bit narky, I'm sorry about that. People who know me well personally know I can get frustrated easily when things aren't going right, then when it's all over I can laugh about it afterwards. I know people do their best to help here, and they aren't looking at my car and seeing what it's doing, but from my point of view, I'm 56, I've had cars since I was 16, and no, I don't do ground up rebuilds or soup cars up but basic stuff comes, or should come, fairly easily to me, because I've been messing about with cars for 40 years and most of your basic tuning and setting up, and doing regular small repairs is within my scope, yet sometimes when I report something I get the feeling people think I've got it wrong and don't know what I'm talking about. It's like when I couldn't set the timing on my Marina or tune the carbs - accepting I wasn't used to tuning twin carbs, but I did everything by the book, and it was rubbish. I was being made to check to see if the crankshaft was in wrong - no - if it had got the wrong distributor on it -no - yet the car was still rubbish and nothing I did was right. So I started to think I was being regarded as a bit incompetent....then when I finally took the car to a garage, when it limped in at 20mph for an MoT and failed on emissions, it took my garage man three days, admittedly between other jobs and keeping going back to it, but three days to find the blocked tail pipe, which might be classed as nobody's fault, the bolt glued into the intake manifold causing an air leak, where there should have been an anti run-on valve (when I didn't even know it should have an anti run-on valve) and the wrong springs in the original serial number distributor, which most definitely is someone else's fault.

Now I'm trying to get to the bottom of why my car won't warm up properly - after the 'new' radiator - and I've basically been told it cannot happen, it can't be the radiator, and check the sender! And yet the car stutters, hesitates and nearly stalls when that gauge is in the blue, but once it gets past the blue, even a little bit, it's much better. But the car still does not run how I want it to. How I think it should. Or how I remember my Mk1 single carb model ran in the 80s. And this is certainly proving to be a problem with how much I like the car.

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Sun May 27, 2018 12:52 am

Okay, so, later than everyone else, I'm sure, I've coaxed my Mk2 HL automatic into life after the winter lay-up, and as per usual it has led me a merry dance in the process. In fact I've come up with a new name for it - The Bitch - and I'm considering adorning it with movie memorabilia from the Joan Collins movie of that name.

So what was the problem this time? Well, it just wouldn't go. It was turning over healthily, it had a spark, and it was doing it's impression of James Stewart's 'Flight Of The Phoenix' again with its 'whirr-whirr-cough-splutter-bang-pop-pop-stall' routine. Ages and ages it went on like this and when it did catch for a bit, it sounded like it was on three - or two - cylinders. Why, I did not know, because last time it ran, it was not like that. Admittedly it was six months ago nearly, but I've never ever had a classic car so stubborn to start after a winter lay-up. That Wolseley Hornet I had with a 998cc A Series caught after three attempts. But The Bitch never fails to frustrate.

So thinking it was stale petrol, I syphoned as much out as I could into a 20 litre jerry can, jacking the front of the car up to assist. Piped the fuel pump up straight to a can of fresh Super Unleaded on the floor near the sump. Finally I got it to catch, after a supreme effort - all credit to the battery - but I had about 50% of the cylinders. Putting the new petrol into the tank, I got it to run for a few minutes, but it was sick. Then I decided to do the one thing I didn't want to do, and I took off the new SU float chamber lids (I didn't want to do it because I fitted new lids and gaskets because the old gaskets were always damp with petrol and smelled when I was driving) and the rear carb showed a full chamber, but the front one was - well not bone dry, but pretty much empty. Ah, no wonder I've only got two and a bit cylinders then. Back on with the old floats, and she runs. Two new float chambers from Burlen Fuels, bought last year but only fitted three weeks ago, and one of them is faulty and isn't letting anything in. I never thought to blow through them before fitting them. I checked and set the float heights as per the instruction sheet, by bending the float arm, but I never thought to blow through them. Now I've got to see if I've got any warranty I can claim on. I've got an inline fuel filter fitted so it cannot be crap out of my fuel tank in my opinion, that's blocked the offending float up.

I've read in the Haynes manuals about setting the float height by holding the lid upside-down and using a 1/8" drill to check the gap between the upturned lid and where the top of the float falls, but have never done it before. My old floats (or at least the ones that came back after the carburettor 'rebuild') are not settable, as they just have a white hinged plastic float that acts directly onto the needle valve, and no bendable metal arm.

So the next thing to mention is, yes, putting an 88 degree wax thermostat in, instead of the standard 82 degree thermostat, does make the engine warm up quicker and run hotter. I never doubted it. After all, why would there be different thermostats for different climates if it didn't influence the running temperature of the engine? And the reason I wanted a hotter thermostat is because my more efficient radiator core is taking away too much heat and making my engine take too long to warm up and run too cool. And to anyone who thought the sender to my temperature gauge had gone faulty, the new thermostat makes the gauge read higher and it is not on the edge of the blue zone. In fact the engine had warmed up to full operating temperature before the thermostat even began to open. However I'm still not entirely happy. I took the car out for a reasonable drive, picking up some more fresh fuel along the way, and after months of driving my insipid 1600 automatic Astra that has got about as much oomph as the 1300cc Honda Insight hybrid I hired five years ago, I was impressed with my Marina's throttle response and acceleration. It's almost a superior car to drive to the Astra, if it weren't for the 'old car' shake, rattle, and roll. But with the new 88 degree thermostat, gone is the hesitation and near-stalling at standstill from the slow warm-up, but the gauge needle now rests slightly past the halfway mark. It didn't get anywhere near the red on this warmish Spring evening, but I'm a bit worried it might be a bit too much on a summer's day in heavy traffic. I think what I really need is an 85 degree thermostat....

Either that or source an original 1.8 Marina radiator and sacrifice my 200 quid re-core job.

I think if there's no such thing as a suitable sized thermostat that opens at about 84 or 85 degrees C (does anybody know?) I'll get a brand new 82 degree one and put that in, rather than put the old one back, to see if that makes any difference.

But it runs...https://youtu.be/O9Fg6w0ZueU

This is the offending float chamber.
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Last edited by mickthefitter on Sun May 27, 2018 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Sun May 27, 2018 1:08 am

This is where my temperature gauge needle sits now, just a bit past the middle with a slight tendency to go up a fraction when under load (like going up a hill).
WP_20180526_20_32_20_Pro.jpg
beniboyz, I still cannot put more than one photo in each post. It looks like they are there until I preview, then only the first one shows and there is a line of text saying "WP_20180526_20_32_20_Pro.jpg (or whatever) is no longer available."

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by lock1506 » Sun May 27, 2018 7:42 pm

Mick my GT always sat about there so I wouldn't worry about it too much. I don't think you will see it climb much higher.

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Sun May 27, 2018 9:58 pm

Yeah its either a bit too hot or a bit too cool, just like Goldilocks and The Three Bears' porridge! I'm still looking for the bowl of porridge that's just right! :lol:

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