Installing V8 in pick up

Post by **MarinaCoupe** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:55 pm

Brian

The 'T5' is the Borg Warner T5 five speed gearbox, designed in the early 80s. Used in Chevys and Fords, from trucks, to Mustangs, to Camaros, to Corvettes and in Europe in the Ford Sierra, TVR Griffiths, Tuscans etc.. There are two versions, so called 'WC' for World Class (e.g. Sierra , Mustang, Camaro etc.) and non-WC.

In simple terms non-WC will handle up to about 200 ft/lbs torque and the same in bhp. WC will handle up to 500 ft/lbs and bhp!

I have a non-WC T5 gearbox in my garage from a Nissan 300ZX, for either a turbo T16 or mid power Rover V8.

I have loads of links to websites for extra information and have the adaptor plan for a BW 35 or 65 auto bellhousing - one for a Marina backplate and one for a Rover V8. The plan would be to design a mount for a concentric clutch so I wouldn't need a clutch lever arm.

Chris

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ClaytonSpeed · Post by **ClaytonSpeed** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:16 pm

MarinaCoupe wrote:Brian

The 'T5' is the Borg Warner T5 five speed gearbox, designed in the early 80s. Used in Chevys and Fords, from trucks, to Mustangs, to Camaros, to Corvettes and in Europe in the Ford Sierra, TVR Griffiths, Tuscans etc.. There are two versions, so called 'WC' for World Class (e.g. Sierra , Mustang, Camaro etc.) and non-WC.

In simple terms non-WC will handle up to about 200 ft/lbs torque and the same in bhp. WC will handle up to 500 ft/lbs and bhp!

I have a non-WC T5 gearbox in my garage from a Nissan 300ZX, for either a turbo T16 or mid power Rover V8.

I have loads of links to websites for extra information and have the adaptor plan for a BW 35 or 65 auto bellhousing - one for a Marina backplate and one for a Rover V8. The plan would be to design a mount for a concentric clutch so I wouldn't need a clutch lever arm.

Chris

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May be there should be a separate thread for the links Chris? I'm sure it would prove to be an interesting topic and helpful too boot!

Ben

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Post by **MarinaCoupe** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:25 pm

The T5 has the advantage of being about 20kg lighter than the LT77/R380.

You may also hear about a Tremec T5, this is the same gearbox. BW sold the design to Tremec about 10 years ago and it is still produced in various forms.

Chris

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bigcarle · Post by **bigcarle** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:42 pm

i can tell you from experience (inserted triumph 1850 plus TR7 5 speed into a MK1) that the LT77 takes a bit of modification to the transmission hump to fit.
the hump needs to go up approx 25mm 1in, i did a cut and shut or of you are more basic a large hammer might do the trick

went well with this combo

locost_bryan · Post by **locost_bryan** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:11 am

MarinaCoupe wrote:The T5 has the advantage of being about 20kg lighter than the LT77/R380.

You may also hear about a Tremec T5, this is the same gearbox. BW sold the design to Tremec about 10 years ago and it is still produced in various forms.

For those Down Under, also standard fare in Aussie Ford Falcons and Holden Commodores.

SiPickupV8 · Post by **SiPickupV8** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:00 pm

Thanks to you all, all this is Very Very good news and good infor' i will listen to all your idea's and keep them in mind the idea of the SD1 gear box i think will be the best and fasted way for me, and price and not needing to replace the back axle as well, saved my bacon.
Thanks again to all. and will take lots of pic's and pass to club and forum.

I started my ownship not thinking about what a marina was, but of couse know i would get rid for all the money but this is i think the same with most of the club owners! Lol

Thanks Si.

ClaytonSpeed · Post by **ClaytonSpeed** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:08 pm

A few shots of Darren (notthatmarinaman) V8 saloon in Oz.

: V8 Rack Position

Close to the rack - this is an Oz 6 cylinder originally so the steering rack is 30mm higher I believe. One would assume that in the UK car (depending on G/Box) you may need to cutout a slot in the bellhousing so that the rack can sit without fouling.

: V8 Pulley Position

Larger front pulley has meant front cross member has to be cut. I'm unsure of the differences between V8's but my P6 motor has a short bottom pulley, an SD1 engine may be different.

: V8 Valance

Front valance different on the Oz cars (6 Cylinders). UK version with a narrow high capacity radiator in place may not need cutting?

See more at: http://www.ozmarina.com

Regards,

Ben

bigcarle · Post by **bigcarle** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:38 pm

yep that's the 4.4 litre P76 engine sitting in there and the pulley is from the executive model that has air and power steer
hence all the pulleys.
the deeper front valance allowed leyland Australia to reposition the radiator down and forward to fit the much longer 6 cyl which only just ft
albeit with an electric fan beside the front of the engine

locost_bryan · Post by **locost_bryan** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:00 am

Not only is the rack 30mm higher for the 6-cylinder, the tunnel is larger to fit the Borg Warner 3-speed gearbox (iirc the Borg Warner 4-speed fits, as does the Toyota Supra 5-speed). The English tunnel will need some mods to fit the Rover 5-speed.

ClaytonSpeed · Post by **ClaytonSpeed** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:45 pm

Good on ya Si!!!!!

http://www.customcarmag.co.uk/index.php ... &Itemid=64

Let us know how you get on and what they send you!

Ben

SiPickupV8 · Post by **SiPickupV8** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:50 pm

thanks ben I didn't know they did that i emailed them weeks ago and forgot about it, but that one they had looked good.
Thanks,

O and a quick update ive just brought a V8 LT77 gearbox bell housing, just need the rest of the box now. LOL
8)

ClaytonSpeed · Post by **ClaytonSpeed** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:55 pm

SiPickupV8 wrote:thanks ben I didn't know they did that i emailed them weeks ago and forgot about it, but that one they had looked good.
Thanks,

O and a quick update ive just brought a V8 LT77 gearbox bell housing, just need the rest of the box now. LOL
8)

Excellent mate! When you stripping out the old motor then?

---
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locost_bryan · Post by **locost_bryan** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:50 pm

beniboyz wrote:Good on ya Si!!!!!

http://www.customcarmag.co.uk/index.php ... &Itemid=64

Let us know how you get on and what they send you!

Acceptable practices shouldn't have changed too much over the last 40 years. :?

Over here in NZ, any mods have to be certified by an approved engineer. Last time I spoke to one, he said fitting a V8 would require a cross brace between the front chassis legs, and possibly a brace on the trans tunnel (especially if modded to fit the manual box). And better brakes at the front (vented discs).

This is a cert plate listing all the approved mods (from a restored ST rally 1800TC Coupe)

What do you have to do in the UK to aloow a modified car onto the road? Just an MOT, or SVA?

ClaytonSpeed · Post by **ClaytonSpeed** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:33 am

locost_bryan wrote:
What do you have to do in the UK to aloow a modified car onto the road? Just an MOT, or SVA?

It is fairly simple as an overview but can open a can of worms. This is what the stance from our DVLA says:

The DVLA wrote:The registration of radically altered vehicles covers vehicles which are substantially altered from their original specification, but which are not kit conversions. In these cases the vehicle components used from the original vehicle will be given a numerical value in order to retain the original registration mark.

The DVLA wrote: Allocating a vehicle registration mark

The vehicle must score eight or more points to retain the original registration mark. If less than eight points are scored or a second-hand or modified chassis or altered monocoque bodyshell is used an Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA), enhanced single vehicle approval (ESVA), single vehicle approval (SVA) or motorcycle single vehicle approval (MSVA) certificate will be required to register the vehicle. A 'Q' prefix registration number will be allocated.
Scoring components

The following values will be allocated to the major components used:

chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
suspension = 2 points
axles = 2 points
transmission = 2 points
steering assembly = 2 points
engine = 1 point

Where there is evidence that two vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie 'cut and shut') a 'Q' mark will be allocated, IVA, ESVA, SVA or MSVA will be required.
Vehicle identification number

This is a legal requirement for all vehicles used on the public highway to carry a vehicle identity number (VIN). This may be lost when a vehicle is substantially rebuilt, particularly in the case of kit vehicles where the chassis or bodyshell may not have been stamped by the manufacturer. In such circumstances the DVLA local office will allocate a replacement VIN. The DVLA local office will issue an authorisation letter and registration will not take effect until the Agency receives confirmation that the vehicle has been stamped with the correct identity.
Registration of vehicles without identity

The following procedures must be followed when making application for the registration and first licensing of a vehicle without identity:

you should use your nearest DVLA local office
applications from outside a DVLA local office's catchment area will be refused
you will be asked to produce documentation confirming your name and address, the link below gives more information

How to register your vehicle and identity checks

you will be asked to produce official receipts from identifiable suppliers for the components used in a rebuild. The authenticity of receipts may be checked. They will be stamped by the DVLA local office before return

All vehicles without identity (VIN and registration mark) will be inspected by DVLA and referred to the police. Applicants who rebuild vehicles and can prove the origins of the components need not be concerned. However, if the police believe a vehicle to be stolen DVLA will refuse to register and it may be impounded.
Be aware

Prospective purchasers of vehicles without identity are advised to exercise caution. If a vehicle is suspected of being stolen both it and the money paid for it may be lost.

It contradicts a lot of insurance companies policy's because they always ask that the brakes and suspension have been "upgraded" to warrant the extra power and or safety of the vehicle.

So for a V8 conversion:

Chassis or body shell:
Not changing the monocoque shell only upgrading areas to Special Tuning standard (i.e. seam welding, brace bars etc) = 5 points

I'm not sure what happens if you then change suspension mounting points i.e. 5 link but I would assume you haven't changed chassis that drastically and all the rally Escorts do this!

Suspension:
Upgrade with period fixings but change to coil overs on the front = 2 points

Axles:
Front: Retain original hubs and uprights but change dampers as above

Rear: Either retain van axle or change to TR7 type = 2 points or 1 point? Not sure on this if you kept one and changed the other.

Transmission:
Change to an auto box as fitted to the Triumph Stag and Marina (BW65) = 2 points

Change to a V6 type 9 and loose the points = 0

Change to an LT77 manual as fitted to TR7's and SD1's etc. You could argue that it was fitted to a Leyland Ital but never went into production.. = negotiable 2 points

Steering assembly:
Keep standard rack but modify to aussy spec if you can... or leave alone = 2 points

Engine:
Self explanatory but since it was not a production car you loose one point. I doubt you could say because Special Tuning built a few V8's it counts!! = 0

12 points that could be negotiated ... Is that right??? Chris??

I think we need a thread just on this subject and maybe one for the mag too!

Ben

Post by **MarinaCoupe** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:22 am

Hi

Yes its a bit of a minefield and is open to interpretation. I had my Coupe MOT'd on Tuesday (it passed) and had a nice chat about this with my inspector. I opened the subject with him as by this time next year it will have the T16 engine.

My current score is

Body/chassis - 5 points - we discussed the changes to the transmission tunnel and he wasn't worried (this doesn't mean another inspector might think differently).
Standard suspension - 2 points, the extra front telescopics don't matter as the original parts are still there and are used (i.e. top and bottom arms, trunnions etc.). Original leaf springs at the rear.
Standard engine block - 1 point (tuning doesn't count).
Standard rear axle - 2 points.
Standard steering - 2 points.
Non standard transmission - 0 points

So a total of 12 points - so still OK.

When the Dolly rear axle and the T16 go in, I'll lose 3 points, but still have 9 points, as although the axle will have changed it'll still be on leafsprings so will still have the same suspension - still OK.

The kicker in all this is the body/chassis - and what constitutes modification; anything that triggers this means an automatic SVA/IVA and a probable Q plate rather than retaining the existing registration, no matter whether any other mods have been made. My MOT guys interpretation is that it was designed to catch the modifiers that rip the front off a car and replace the front of the chassis with new tubing to mount a glassfibre flip front etc. etc. Practical Performance Car magazine took up the question with the DVLA and the DVLA fudged the answer. I guess that at the end of the day you either take your car along to the SVA/IVA people and ask (the Honest John approach), get caught out by a diligent MOT tester, or keep quiet. The problem with keeping quiet is that if you have a prang, you may find yourself uninisured as no SVA/IVA would mean no proof of roadworthiness and the MOT would be null and void.

Suspension - If a car has leaf springs and it is replaced with a 5 link rear end then lose the points, likewise A arms at the front (a la Ben's JLH mod) lose the points.

One of our 5SpeedMarina customers was so worried about cutting a new hole in the transmission tunnel and running into problems that he cut and shut the selector on the top of the Type 9 gearbox rather than the transmission tunnel, so that it comes up through the standard Marina gear lever hole.

Fast Marina Magazine